Sunday, July 13, 2014

Replacing the M9

So the US Army is looking to replace the M9.  Apparently they are finally owning up to the mistake that was the 9mm.... and the Beretta 92.   And its not that I really have a lot against the 92f.  I mean I have a couple of them.  There is a lot about the design I like.  But lets face it... when Taurus's clone blew the original out of the water... well... that should tell you something.  The 92F should've had a decocker.  The 92f should've been significantly beefed up.

But that's all water under the bridge now.  The Army wants a new sidearm.  It says it wants a simple, modern, ergonomic weapon with more knock down power.

Hear that ladies?  The US Army is admitting the 9mm doesn't do the job.  I will be interested to hear your lamentations and crying.  or not.  I really don't care.  If you carry a 9 you're deluding yourself.  As it is it looks like they will be looking for either a .40 or a .45. I am thinking they'll go with something in .40.

Anyway I thought I'd compile a list of the folks that already have duty pistols in the pipeline that will no doubt be in the competition.  If I leave anything out be sure to mention it in the comments.  Based on what I've seen I expect them to be looking for a DAO striker fired pistol.  So lets take a look...

FN Herstal FNS:  This is the striker version of the FNX.  It should be a serious contender and some think its the favorite.

Springfield XD:  If they are going by quality...  the XD is going to be in it till the end.

SIG P320:  We thought it was blasphemous when saw this pistol announced... but now I think the guys at SIG knew something the rest of us didn't.

Glock: Obviously.  Lots of folks are just assuming Glock will get the contract.  I think that's foolish.  The Army was clear that ergonomics were important... so Glock can be eliminated right there.

Ruger SR40:  This is a real dark horse in my opinion.  There is every reason in the world to give the SR a long look.

Smith and Wesson M&P40:  Like the Ruger... this one has to get a look but I don't think it is a contender.

Taurus 24-7:  I don't think it has a chance... but it will still be entered into the competition.

I don't think Steyr will enter the M40A-1 into the competition.  But I would obviously love to see them do so.

No doubt we'll also see some new designs entered... but for now these are the ones I expect to see duking it out.  Personally I think the Springfield or the SIG are the weapons to beat.


Russ said...

The army is admitting the 9mm ball ammo isn't doing the job. They aren't allowed to use expanding ammo.

If you're banned from using fancy ammunition by various conventions, of course you'd want a wider bullet. but if you can use hp +p stuff that expands just as wide as the .40 and .45, why not use the cartridge that has less kick, and more capacity, and just as much energy?

You mentioned something about FBI stats on the inferiority of 9mm as a one shot stopper. Do these stats record the types of ammo being used? I doubt they do.

Nate said...

I love how the 9mm crowd all starts crying about ammo. "Well if you just use super fancy ammo X it is just as effective!"

no. It isn't.

Because... shocker here... Super Ammo X comes in .40 and .45 too.

So testing 9mm Super Ammo X should be done against .45 Super Ammo X.

And guess what? .45 Super Ammo X is going to expand way more than 9mm Super Ammo X.

cheddarman said...

This is the Army choosing a pistol during the Obama administration. The most important consideration will not be potential combat performance, rather it is Lesbian, Gay, and Transgendered friendly?

Stilicho said...

The FNX .45 already has all of the features they're looking for, plus it isn't striker fired. It narrowly lost to the 1911 in the last round of competition for a "new" SOF handgun. 15+ rounds of .45 goodness, hammer fired, decocker and manual safety, easily configured for suppressor (including raised sights), single/double, etc. A little heavy on the double action pull, but that can be adjusted.

Athor Pel said...

I was watching a Jerry Miculek video Saturday and he was having fun with a Barrett M107, the newest one with the 20 inch barrel and weighs 27 pounds. He was doing his normal speed drills with it, standing up. He had the biggest grin every time he finished one of the drills and generally whooping and hollering like a kid. His split times weren't all that slower than he shoots with an AR.

Eventually he got to shooting other target types. These shots were done at 150 yds, with the gun on a table.

One particular test was instructive for this discussion. He shot 5 one gallon plastic jugs of water positioned inline with bullet travel. The first and second jugs got .50 caliber holes in them but the third one was torn up some and the fourth and fifth were destroyed. It was only after the bullet started shedding its jacket and tumbling that it really began to dump its energy into the target medium. It other words, increasing the surface area of the bullet in contact with the target medium is what allows quick energy transfer.

With this in mind we can see that bigger bullets, assuming they are moving fast enough to penetrate the target at all, have an advantage over smaller bullets just by virtue of having a larger frontal cross section to begin with.

Nate said...

I believe they'll go with a striker fired pistol this time.

Nate said...

of course... if one looks at their actual criteria objectively... then a wheel gun is actually a better answer than a semi.

Wheelguns are simpler.. more reliable... easier to use... more ergonomic and have serious advantages in stopping power if you go with a big one.

A 6 inch 7 shot .41 magnum would make a badass duty pistol.

Russ said...

The point is that if you consider plain ordinary.40 and .45 cartridges adequate, then you really can't categorically rule out 9mm as an effective platform when it's using the right ammo.

Nate said...

Except no one carries plain ordinary .40 and .45 ammo.



Russ said...

But I'm pretty sure nobody carries .40 in +p. Maybe you do, but word on the street is that they are pretty damn rare. When comparing 9 v. .40, my point about comparable power and expansion in a smaller package stills stands.

As for the souped up .45 rounds, they still don't have that much more power than the overpressure nines. Corbon's .45 gets 27 more foot pounds than their 9 mil. It's an advantage sure, but nothing to write home about, especially since you're cutting your ammo capacity in half. Also, Do most people really carry .45 +p?

Nate said...

My wife carries a .45.

I carry 2 40s and .357.

Mr. Nightstick said...

Why is law enforcement going back to the 9mm?

patrick kelly said...

Bet even Nate is not gonna' let someone take the first shot with a 9 no matter how big a bore he's packin' at the time just to prove he can still get the 2nd shot off....

(....this pissin' contest will likely be about as informative and useful as the AK vs. AR .........)

Anonymous said...

Why don't you thing the S&W M&P will be a contender, Nate?


Anonymous said...

Do you suppose the recent push for gays in the military will give Glock the edge on a contract...?

Gecko said...

.40 doesn't really come in +P because, being a more modern cartridge, the standard pressure is already high. Basically, all .40 is +P by default. 9mm and .45 are older, and the original spec is low enough that we can cram in some +P with modern tech.

This is why some people claim that .40 kicks just as much as .45. They're comparing standard .45 to standard .40, but that's not really an apples-to-apples comparison. You really should be comparing standard .40 to .45 +P.

Anyway, I hope the SR40 gets a serious look. There aren't a lot of options for parts for my SR40c right now because it's just not as big a deal as the others. I'd love to see more incentive for extended mags, Sub2k compatibility, and other silly things to spend money on.

The SR40 is a little overkill on safety features, which should keep politicians happy. (I removed the mag safety on mine.) The manual safety also operates the same direction as a 1911, so it should be familiar to old timers that like cocked & locked.

Better yet, maybe Ruger will submit an all steel long slide version that uses the same mags! One can dream...

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

"This is the Army choosing a pistol during the Obama administration. The most important consideration will not be potential combat performance, rather it is Lesbian, Gay, and Transgendered friendly?"

Cheddah, if that were the set of criteria in use, they would just stick with what they've got, the M9.

The FNX .45 or the Springfield should come out on top. Both are superior firearms in every way.

On the question of ammo, my wife's FNX .40 is stuffed with 15 rounds of Hydrashock. My 1911 is loaded at all times with Hydrashock as well. Ball is ammo is for practicing.

WCU said...

our department is going with the 40